How about solar in central chile

Hi forumites!

Living on a parcela and we are experiencing an average of one outage every 2 or 3 weeks. In a region that has 9 months of sunshine, solar makes sense. We have a deep well so that would be the biggest challenge.

I have heard of people going solar in a project approved by their electric provider and returning their surplus to the grid, Apparently this arrangement would involve a lot of money, 50,000 ,000 plus and the installation of an array of over-sized panel, approved by the electric company, Seeing a hilltop covered with solar panels would be a blight on the pastoral beauty that I could not accept, and I cannot afford the price. Has anyone researched joint efforts with their electric provider?

The more reasonable plan of just getting enough panels and batteries for 2 houses and one deep well is running around 9,000,000 with a 5 year garantia on material and service. Will try to attach the specifics.

first he tried to offer a guaranty of 6 months, I said no, needed at least 5 years. A month later he got back to me and agreed to 5 years. He is a local installer,

I know zilch about solar panels, Any insights would be so appreciated


Just some thoughts…

In a quick look at those materials I don’t see any mention of storage, nor of any hookup to allow the property to run from mains power, switching over to battery when the mains power fails, which is a more sensible way to go imho.

But battery use means SEC certification
As @findes already mentioned they are quite strict on safety, especially where storage batteries are used.

Also I would look around the area for similar installations and approach the owners for their experiences, bearing in mind that truth can be hard to find here; many will only say whatever they think makes them look good.

Enforcing Guarantees here is difficult. And depending on use, even good batteries may only have a life of five years.

Can of worms…

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image

Perhaps nit-picking here, but these “charging options” only indicate use of the device for lead-acid batteries, and evidently not lithium, and different lithium chemistries may call for more than one charging regimen. This approach suggests a failure in the area of future-proofing and versatility since on the surface it would preclude later use of lithium battery storage banks.

Sellado, gel, e inundado in the provider’s data would presumably refer to the common lead-acid battery types which are (1) sealed, but with electrolyte inside the case – the most common type used in contemporary automobiles, and no release of explosive hydrogen gas. Though nothing is cheap in this business, this type of battery is perhaps the cheapest and most readily available. If properly maintained, a good quality sealed lead-acid battery could theoretically offer up to 10 years of service. In theory. As with all such battery types, minor inspection and maintenance is required, including cleaning of terminals and sometimes periodic replacement of terminals.

A gel lead-acid battery typically doesn’t offer much of a cost-benefit advantage for a PV installation. It means that the electrolyte sealed inside is in the form of a gel rather than a liquid. We use this type in small aircraft and where mounting in odd orientations may be called for. Since your battery bank does not fly upside down for long, the gel doesn’t do much for you.

Inundado or flooded lead-acid battery is the old automobile type: you have to periodically check the electrolyte levels, and add distilled water when necessary. Unlike the other two types mentioned, being unsealed means that this one produces potentially vented explosive hydrogen gas when charging, and under some conditions that gas may be released into your little fire-resistant structure which is of course isolated from the living space.

Cuento corto: this provider may not be offering an optimal set of components, if future incorporation of lithium storage batteries is not possible.

That is my very superficial view of just one element in the provider’s proposal.


Part 2: With respect to feargle’s concept of using your PV system as a backup and using mains when utility power is available, that might not offer much bang-for-your-loonie.

For one thing, an adequate and approved switch and legal installation can be expensive.

For another, an apagĂłn during darkness or low light conditions means that your energy-consuming devices are drawing off your battery bank, and the solar components add nothing. Thus if your primary concern is just for a backup energy source to get you through an apagĂłn, you could eliminate the expense and complexity of the PV subsystem and just invest in more battery storage. Those batteries are kept topped up whilst utility mains power is on.

This is what I would do as a pirate installer with no intention of following the fooking rules:

Purchase a 1500 VA Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) for my computer and a small emergency lighting system. When mains power fails, this automatically maintains my modem and laptop and with no loss of comm I can check the news for where the meteorite struck the transmission lines … or whatever the major fault source may be. Connectivity is your friend.

Do a calculation of the worst-case energy draw, in watt-hours, for your critical residence devices for the period you want to have backup . Water pump and refrigerator and what else? Minimum LED lighting doesn’t draw much. Let’s say you want 24 hours of backup.

Now forget the solar stuff. Just figure out what your battery bank needs to provide to give you that 24 hours of backup, and add 30 percent. For what you don’t spend on those silly solar parts you can spend on more battery time.

Our pirate installation is not going to pay 500,000 CLP for an SEC-approved automatic switch !

Instead, our co-conspirator chispas is going to write out instructions for the sequence of events and the two cheap switches.

Estimada señora:

First, you pull switch A to disconnect your palatial estate from the mains.

Next, you pull switch B to connect your estate to your battery bank.

¡¡ AVISO !! PELIGRO !! Never have both your battery bank and the mains connected to your estate !!! This could bugger your home installation but also might kill a utility worker who believed that the mains power near you was de-energized !!!

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I didn’t see any batteries mentioned in those docs, only what types the charger is capable of handling. :confused:

And having seen an overcharged single 18650 cell doing a fair imitation of a Roman Candle, I’m not sure I would want a Battery Bank of them.

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@feargle


Correct. The discussion was that the provider offered no option for eventually using lithium battery charging/storage (which is becoming the most common in many places). But that equipment list offered the charging option, to add old style lead acid batteries.

A PV backup that has no storage via battery bank is frankly stupid.

And if this provider is proposing just PV with no storage then… find someone who is a little less chileno.

Energy storage is hazardous, whether via lead-acid or newer approved/listed lithium battery packs. For that reason no matter what chemistry you elect for storage, you have to have a fully qualified fire-resistant structure protected/isolated from the living space and any other structure.

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Or very crafty:

“Oh, you want power at night as well?
Well, you need some Batteries.
Yes we can supply them, and provide an approved type of enclosure, and do the SEC tramites as well.
Please find our attached quote”

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Helllo. in my opinion, if you have posts with electricity from the newkork available, to install solar is a big NO NO
Im electronic engineer and many of my friends from the university are in the business of sell and install panels, it is a great idea when you have no access to the grid or if you want some backup for emergencies, but is a terrible idea both economically and technically, unless if are your only choice.
I have wrote a lot about this in my blog, one of the entries with dome numbers are here
https://bradanovic.blogspot.com/2019/08/paneles-solares-en-mi-casa.html

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I see that Bradanovic and I are of one mind on this subject.

Qué bueno es, ser tan sabio.

:rofl: :rofl:
jajaja buen punto

For completeness, here’s an alternative:

The inbuilt battery can charge from the mains, or from solar panels.
Tesla and others make similar devices.

Still needs to be professionally installed and certified.

Even though I’m affected more than most by the increasingly unreliable mains power here, I wouldn’t fork out CLP $10M to cure the problem. And all these devices involve a certain amount of electrical know-how, more than most local electricians possess. They are not fit-and-forget, requiring periodic maintenance.

But the simplest solution for emergencies would be a small diesel generator.
And if the overriding concern is to run water pumps, fit a bigger storage tank.
:slight_smile:

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Lots of info and interesting perspective. Muchas gracias

Thanks again Findes, however your solution is for a far more optimistķic scenario where the grid returns in a few days, week… What is the capacity of these batteries you refer to… could they handle a deep well pump for half an hour a day as well as 2 fridges, a handful of lightbulbs, 2 smaller bombas for individual showers, and laptops, cell phones, sat router for 2 families …handle all these for say 6 months to a year? You know, hope for the best but plan for the worst. Don’t want to be regretting non-action and saying I could’ve, should’ve.

Another night sin luz. Phone texting on a phone battery of 10% in the dark. Miss the comforting hum of the fridge

Thanks feargle, hoping to avoid the can of worms aspect. Good observations. Will proceed with caution and keep you posted.

Thanks Tom, will read your blog post. Dont want to wait until there is no other choice but also restricted by budget

Thanks feargle will check that out. In a major blackout it is hard to get fuel. And already have 2 huge water tanks but 6 horses depend on it as well as 5 human, 7 dogs and 4 cats.

Can you upload their quite please?

:+1: This Friday I have to meet with a friend who sell those projects, but only here in Arica not in central Chile, anyway I will show your sheet data and will ask him if he see some technical issues. As far as I know the inverter is the most important part of those systems, chinesse inverters tend to burn very soon, the standard brand for a good instalation is Victron, a company from The Netherlands.
Anyway if your budget is restricted and you need a system for emergencies, I strongly reccomend to consider another sources as a diesel generator, who its way more robust, bulletproof and cheaper also. Maybe some noisy and not so sexy but for emergencies is the best option in my view

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Once again, Bradanovic reveals the greater wisdom in this matter. As do others in suggesting the diesel generator backup if the outage is going to last more than 24 hours.

You may wish to run some numbers. Calculate how long your worst case outage would last and your energy need in watt-hours for all your devices/appliances. Then determine the cost of the associated battery bank as described earlier. Consider the time needed to recharge the bank using mains power and the probability of a new long outage before the battery bank is sufficiently recharged. From this calculation you have a cost, or a set of costs depending on how much margin you wish to keep in the event of closely recurring apagones. .

Now determine the cost of the backup diesel generator and associated infrastructure. The expression sometimes used is “genset” where the diesel motor and the actual generator and controls are combined as a unit. You will need a battery to start the diesel genset and it will be kept charged either via mains or genset output, through a “smart” battery tender. Diesel must be properly stored in a sufficiently large and appropriate type of tank, and a means provided for contamination (esp water) removal/filtration. You will need theft protection and probably a small structure remote from the residence. You might need additional means for assuring that the genset output is clean enough and within a required voltage range, if the genset does not provide that. Add costs of trenching and cabling. You will need to periodically run and test the system. I personally avoid the expensive but legally required automatic switching from failed mains to starting the genset. Add up those costs, plus consideration for maintenance and fuel delivery and storage. Comparing this cost set to the big battery bank is not exactly apples to apples, but close.

A 5.5 kW electric start diesel genset goes for about CLP 1.2 million here in Punta Arenas. Satisfactory 150 liter diesel fuel tank with installation, maybe about 300,000 CLP. Your region may differ. Use those loonies wisely and don’t get the cheapest crap.

My personal experience with this type of system comes from a cold-country property in North America,where I used a petrol/gasoline 6kW genset in a small shed a distance from the residence, due to the noise of the engine. ¡ Ojo ! – you will soon appreciate the distance and noise reduction. In an outage – Manual disconnection from mains, switch off non-critical devices/appliances, fire up the genset, stabilize output, plug in 220 VAC 3-phase genset feed (that is needed for the deep well pump). And Bob’s your uncle.

thanks Tom, perhaps your friend knowsa trustworthy affiliate in the 7th region. Instead of relying on one quote, will try to get a couple more over the next few weeks,

wow, thanks Findes, a diagram even I can understand. I also understand solar would not work well in southern Chile, nor be perfect in north central US but it seems blasphemous to not harness the sun when the 7th region receives 9 months per year. You would think by now perfect, user friendly, reliable affordable systems would be readily available, I remember years ago reading some South American country was giving free solar panels to the poor,

It almost seems as if there is a concerted effort by big oil and electric to block the use of an energy they cannot monetize but good ideas like air bubbles almost always find their way to the surface (except for viable hydrogen powered or strictly water powered engines, which have been successfully suppressed, perhaps forever)