Power generation is not simple. With mains power, all the hard work of keeping it running 24/7 is invisible to the end-user, who takes it for granted - until it fails. Then, sooner or later, “they” fix it.
When power generation is devolved on the end-users, as well as the sheer expense, they need to know enough practical electrics to effectively troubleshoot and maintain, if not repair, the system. To repeat my original statement, its a can of worms.
Your interest or rather insistence on a PV solution seems to be more religious or even animistic in nature rather than coldly objective. The technical name might be " Heliolater.and as cults go, that one is rather benign. There may be a complementary term for willingness to engage in excessive expense, complexity, risk, and ritualistic periodic maintenance. Ergo, a solar hobby. Or solar headache.
Anyway, Bradanovic has supplied a dollop or two of wisdom and you now have a path for objective assessment for how to approach a solution for backup power.
For the electrical demand that you outlined there in Maule, you might be paying about 28,000 CLP monthly. Your PV with storage concept may run around 10,000,000 CLP for initial investment plus recurring costs and without consideration of the time value of money… Useful life of components is unknown but should be factored ---- ten year useful life? . Such a system may never reach payback, so for PV you may be paying for a theoretical reliability/availability luxury. .
Much to consider. Suerte.
thanks Findes, excellent synopsis, Many viable options have been offered and I will consider them all. Thank you for your contributions, including the humorous and creative use of metaphors. Being coldly objective is not my strong point, that is why I wrote this post. When you realize you are lacking in one area, you turn to those who have an excess of that attribute. And I do not want luxury, just reliability and survival if the big grid fails indefinetly.
thanks, am at the pondering/researching stage, will ponder some more
If the big grid fails in an Armageddon-like manner, then a personal PV system is just an ephemeral candle in the wind. Knowing how Chile has progressively degraded its capacity and willingness to recover from major disasters, and the tendencies of the great legions of unwashed hooligans to run roughshod over defenseless homeowners, you may wish that you had laid in a month’s worth of victuals and secured the permit for a rifle.
I agree, Findes, and if that day comes, I don’t want to survive. But a month long outage, would like to weather that. Will keep you all posted on any new quotes I get. And yes, there is also the generator but I treasure the silence out here. Had a generator in the aftermath of the fires in 2019. Dreadful sounds emanated whenever it was ignited. . But budgetary restrictions may lead me back to those gas guzzling noise machines,
RE power budget for sizing battery backup/storage.
Your mileage may differ but a neighbor who installed a submersible well pump in a 30 meter hole said that it ran at about 700-1000 watts but needed 3000 watts for starting that pump. So when you start developing your calculations, be sure to deal with someone familiar with the precise nature of your appliances, including those startup or inrush numbers.
If you were familiar with the basics of the electrical code in Canada, you’ll remember that the conductors, the wiring, need to be rated for 125 percent of the highest continuous load. That applies to the conductors for your battery bank as well. Although you may not currently (no pun) care for a genset system, you will need to know the continuous running rating rather than the advertising label which may be peak or intermittent if you are running directly off that genset, with no battery bank. And I would recommend that your genset continuous running capacity be 20-30 percent higher than your highest continuous load.
Hybrid system:
Some people will use a sort of hybrid system, with a decent capacity battery bank capable of supplying power needs for several hours, then a small genset can be used to recharge the battery bank for short periods. That way you can have a comparatively smaller, cheaper, and quieter genset and you don’t have to run it all the time during your occasional apagón condition. Depending on the power needs you might only run the genset for only a couple of hours during the day, and have silence at night. Such a system can be made to turn on the genset automatically, or manually (e.g., never run it at night).
This can be expensive due to the potentially large battery bank, but if you cherish your quiet time during those occasional apagones, it may be worth it.
Here is another variant, that will satisfy your PV/solar cravings by using a small panel set for trickle charging to keep the battery bank charged, and then the smallish backup generator for occasional charging of the battery bank when extended apagón duration draws down the battery storage. Not necessarily recommended but an illustration of possible configurations if you feel the need to have PV/solar play a role . The small and relatively quiet generator is only needed during extended mains outage.
The “Yeti 150” is just a commercial packaging of a battery bank, which can be tailored according to specific local power needs.
If you want to see what 3.3 million CLP can get you in Chile in a household battery backup system, here is a link. I know nothing about them. And we know nothing about your well pump electrical characteristics and other power demands.
This solution is what we ended up doing. However we used a larger Yeti 3000 and a smaller Yeti and had the deep freeze chest freezer and one fridge on the large yeti all the time. We bought a few spools of 40m extension cords and could tap into the large yeti from anywhere else or we could move the smaller yeti easily to where we needed it. We only ran the diesel generator to recharge the yetis when solar couldnt keep up. Saves a TON on diesel instead of just mindleslly running it constantly regardless of the draw.
The well pump and the fridges/freezer will be the biggest draw and a yeti 3000 or yeti 6000 can keep up with that. Maybe using a large yeti for the house and a seperate yeti for the well pump with solar and grid topoff would be best
It would be pretty easy/safe to get a large Goal Zero Yeti and have it installed with a transfer switch on your house. Installation costs are basically nothing except for the transfer switch install to the mains
Here is my research to date. Solar energy company 1 said their system only works in conjunction WITH the grid. Hmm. Not what I want.
And let me see if I am tech savvy to upload the convo with the second company, and the estimate…
it wants 20 characters, here they are
as for the well, the well and pump installer turned out to be a drunk. Interestingly in my life, I have noticed how people with drinking problems are often attracted to careers dealing with water. This pozo/bomba maestro, a another plumber in Canada and a couple of fisherman. Certainly not enough data to be signficant, just experiences from my little life.
So I could not get much info from the well installer but second hand, I was told by a person who wanted me to buy more water rights… that was his gig…<< Ahora con pozo de ******** hay 5 pulgados solo. Max capacidad de este pozo es 5 litros/segundo. ***** puede hacer pozo de 8 pulgados.
Por mas fuerte bomba de 6 pulgados necesito energia TRIFÁSICA. Ahora tengo solo energia de MONOFASICA. 3 hcp Con energia solar o generadora puede obtenir energia TRIFÁSICA, 5.5 hcp. >>>
Not sure if that helps with the capacity? power? of the bomba. How would I learn the capacity without dealing with the drunken installer… who, BTW, is still installing wells and pumps in the area 10 years later?
Welcome to Chile.
You refer to a “pozo de 6 pulgados” and not sure what you mean. Never heard of a pulgado so I presume you mean pulgada, an inch. Do you mean the well bore is 6 inches? Probably not. I suspect that your well bore is 4 inches and maybe you have a submersible pump?
For significant three phase power from a solar source you need a serious (large) solar panel array (the quote shows 12 x 550 W… 1.8 palos just for that hardware feature) and a special “3 phase solar inverter” ($$$$$) and a bunch of new cabling. These are “smart” inverters since they require firmware to balance the incoming DC across the three output power phases. I have no experience with this type so some of this is speculative.
We may have mentioned earlier that a larger panel array would likely require a PV combiner. That conditions the panel inputs before the inverter and may keep the inverter from letting the smoke out (chispas joke). Cost for low end type in North America about US$200 and in CL probably US$300 or so.
If you incorporate your pieces into the grid, which you might use to keep your batteries charged on normal days, it gets complicated. Your drop from the utility is probably single phase, which is easy enough with common components (I think most rural residences in Maule are single phase drops though there might be a utility company transformer close by and for a price that utility might be willing to give you 3-phase service $$$$.) You would need 3-phase utility power for daily normal use of your 3-phase well pump unless your own power plant can supply enough energy day and night and on cloudy and rainy days .
Now, if your new 3-phase solar power is going to charge your batteries, I believe that you would normally need a 3-phase battery inverter ($$$$) – depending on the features of your 3-phase solar inverter. Remember that your inverter from the panel array wants to balance the loads on the 3 phases and apparently the more expensive smart 3-phase inverters have a takeoff for single phase loads for your conventional battery chargers.
Then your move to a 3-phase well pump means a new and more expensive pump ($$$$$) and associated additional wiring and controls. A typical 4-HP 3-phase 4-inch submersible well pump around here will run you another US$1000 or so plus installation costs.
Are you sure you want to do all that? Is there even a chispas in Maule/Cauquenes who could assemble and maintain such a system? This is not an inexpensive or simple matter. If you have a need for considerable water use then perhaps consider a low power single phase pump running often enough to supply a large water storage tank. That is where the “estanque australiano” practice comes in – reasonable cost and common in much of the country. Image:
Image showing notional 3-phase components and schematic where the smart solar inverter evidently eliminates the need for a separate 3-phase battery inverter. This set of components for a rural residence 6kW 3 phase solar power plant using gel batteries would be about US$5000 in North America for parts only. Availability in CL is unknown but something similar with competent labor in CL would probably be closer to US$10,000 for parts plus incorporation into your current well and residence infrastructure (rough guess).
Those with real knowledge in this area please comment as needed.
thanks Findes
A lot to digest for a non-techy type like me. Does it help to know we only run the well pump for an hour a day,… just enough to clean and fill all the horses troughs and fill the two huge water tanks.?Then the well pump is shut off and water comes from the filled tanks. Is that an important variable in your calculations?
As for the estanque australiano, one of the reasons I chose the seventh region is besides enjoying sunshine and its vitamin D benefits, I like to be outdoors most of the time, in T shirt and shorts. With its arid Mediterrenean climate, there are no mosquitoes here unless you invite them. ie: unless the horses’ water tanks are not cleaned regularly. Stagnant water is a breeding ground for mosquitoes and mosquitoes are the biggest vector of disease.
We only had them here once one summer when the horses’ water troughs were not cleaned regularly. So mosquitoes would proliferate in the long-standing water in the estanque australiano.
The bulk of that prior message was meant to discourage an expensive and unnecessary conversion to 3-phase power, by including the details of why such a move would be complex and expensive.
Don’t you already have some sort of water storage tanks? That wasn’t clear. Large enough existing storage would obviate the need for the mention previously.
As far as the estanque australiano, you are not the Lone Ranger in concern for bichos and such in the water, and for that reason many locations use some form of cover. In a hot* and desiccated region such as your rural interior Cauquenes, I would think that some storage of water would be essential for many reasons, not just for the household and animal herd use but for fire suppression. There are a number of ways of keeping the stored water clean.
*NB: In the not to be believed chapter, the hottest temperatures recorded in Chile are not in the Atacama, but in the region near Cauquenes. Quirihue and Chillán have set some records in the past.
Not necessary to be as large as these installations but these were available images
This is the sort of thing we most often see in the rural parts of this region and similar to what I have installed in the past. These can be made to work with chlorination
thank you Findes, there are two water tanks on a tower, 1300 and 2400 litros. Which leads us back into a circular logic of why I want solar. I do not want large amounts of standing water, I want the well pump to work when there is no power. I am good with replenishing the 2 existing tanks. I do not want chlorine. I want well water from my 60 meter deep well, water cleansed naturally by soil and clay.
You said " You would need 3-phase utility power for daily normal use of your 3-phase well pump unless your own power plant can supply enough energy day and night and on cloudy and rainy days ."
I do not have three phase nor do I want the expense of it I only have " MONOFASICA. 3 hcp" so do you think this system work with MONOFASICO, separate from the grid?
Thank you for your patience.
If I had suggested a need for 3-phase power then I misspoke. I tried to discourage it as unnecessary and expensive.
So you have water tanks on high. That’s good. It takes energy to pump water up to elevated tanks.
Let us back up a bit. What are the power requirements of your well pump? We need both running and startup, how often and for how long. And you might as well add the requirements of other items that you plan to power, and how often you need to use them. Other appliances also have higher inrush/startup demands.
Chances are, solar alone won’t provide even enough energy for the well pump, which we assume is a 220VAC single phase type. So you would need a battery bank. And remember that the brief inrush or starting power requirement might be 5 to 10 times as much as the full load continuous running rate. Depending on the type of batteries you use in that battery bank, you may not be able to safely draw more than about 50 percent of the battery bank’s capacity, and likely a small battery bank isn’t going to safely cut it. And remember that there is an inverter involved to give you AC and it may only be 85% efficient. Undersized conductors of the sort installed by the usual chispas make this even worse.
So solar plus battery bank to run a substantial well pump is going to cost you. But if solar is your religion then you’ll have to pay the priests.
We’re getting back to the original discussion of the fundamental elements for approaching a solution.
